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Post: #1 oatmeal question , 08-13-2012 09:38 AM


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Are the supposedly magical ldl reducing properties of steel cut oatmeal worth the carbs?

I hope this isn't too stupid a question.

I'm in a bit of a bind. Type II (last a1c was 6.7 and borderline high ldls (standard lipid panel NOT nmr ldl was 127). Not sure if I should just focus on dropping the carbs or if there's a place for oatmeal (which I do enjoy) in my diet. Am currently on 500 mg of metformin (not sure that matters).

thanks
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Post: #2 RE: oatmeal question , 08-13-2012 12:06 PM


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I guess it is all about experimentation. Workout how many carbs you will be spending, including the milk or cream you might add. Then judge how you feel after this meal. Has it increased your carb cravings, how do you eat for the rest of the day, what proteins or fats could you add to your meal to balance it out a bit?

I don't really know about if this will lower your LDL figures - but most of us know that a high fat and low carb diet does a pretty good job of doing that anyway - and low cholesterol numbers don't necessarily mean you are at a lower risk of a heart attack anyway.

You need to consider your diabetes before your cholesterol in my opinion (I am not a doctor though!). I beleive that getting your blood sugars under control should be your first priority and a low carb high fat diet will acheive this for you. then you could see how you react to adding oats back into your diet.

others will be more informed than me on the oats thing...

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http://www.collinsquinlan.co.uk

I lost 50 pounds on a ketogenic diet early 2012. I have kept it off ever since on a low carb high fat diet. My weight is now stable and "normal" for the first time in my adult life Tongue
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Post: #3 RE: oatmeal question , 08-13-2012 12:22 PM


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I don't believe anything that goes around like "this food lowers LDL..."

1. It's probably not true.
2. You probably don't need to do that anyway!

I try not to think about this food or that solving a problem unless the food is full-on hunter gather food, then I can believe it has some reason behind it besides marketing.
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Post: #4 RE: oatmeal question , 08-13-2012 01:01 PM


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Those Quaker commercials make it sound like you NEED oatmeal to lower cholesterol. I like Dr. William Davis' analogy for things like this--it's like low tar cigarettes. The manufacturers try to convince you that just because low tar is better for you than regular cigarettes they are "good" for you. Fortunately most of us are too smart nowadays to take up smoking in order to get the health benefits of low tar cigarettes.

There are 27 grams of carbs in a bowl of oatmeal with only 4 grams of fiber (net 23 grams of carbs). That's more than one full days worth of carbs for many of us!! Glycemic load is 55, glycemic index is 13, assuming we're talking cooked old fashioned oatmeal. Instant microwave stuff is nearly double on the glycemic index and load! Putting this in perspective, a bowl of regular ice cream is only 56 on the glycemic index and 6 on the glycemic load. In other words, ice cream will have less of an imPact on your blood sugar than that "healthy" bowl of oats.

Your A1c shows that you have a serious problem with insulin metabolism and the last thing your body needs is a morning carb bomb.

Why the focus on LDL in particular? Most doctors, if they manage to get beyond treating total cholesterol will go to LDL next, but LDL is not necessarily the whole picture. If you're brave, you can look for Peter Attia's EIGHT part series showing that the commonly measured LDL-C is not very indicative of cardiovascular risk and a better measure is LDL-P or partical number, something labs don't typically measure. Ratios between total cholsterol, HDL, LDL and triglycerides give a better prediction of risk than simply looking at one isolated number.

A low carb diet with adequate Omega 3 ratio has the most significant impact on cholesterol in general. Yes, sometimes LDL goes UP. Often when it does, it is because triglycerides have gone down below 100, and the standard method of calculating LDL is no longer accurate.

If you're really missing oatmeal for breakfast (I do) try this low carb, low glycemic, high fiber alternative:

2/3 cup boiling water
Pinch of salt
1/4 cup ground flax (I mix ground flax and hemp hearts 50/50)

Add the flax to the boiling water and stir. Microwave for 2 minutes or cook on the stove until just thickened. It will thicken a little more when removed from the heat.

I like to add things like almond butter, chopped pecans, unsweetened coconut to give it more body. Top with your favorite low carb toppings, don't hesitate to add a generous pat of grass fed butter or some lovely heavy cream. YUM!
You'll be doing your blood sugar and your cardiovascular risk a favor!
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Post: #5 RE: oatmeal question , 08-14-2012 01:31 PM


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First thanks to all of you who took the time to respond. While I'm not new to lc or diabetes, I AM new to cholesterol issues and drs pushing statins on me and the literature on this is giving me heaches plus I see my dr. tomorrow to review my recent numbers (read that as more pushing statins so I'm particularly cranky.

This is not about putting $ in the pockets of the company that owns Quaker oasts.

It's not that I'm missing oatmeal. It's that supposedly oatmeal by virtue of it being oatmeal (and not anything that is NOT oatmeal) has special properties that can have postive effect upon ldl amongst its other nutritional benefits.

I've read oats are not to considered in the same category as other carbs/grains such as wheat for example.

I did attempt to read all the posts (and comments) by Dr. Attia and they made my head spin!

My ratios are ok (not great but in the "good camp"). I know I need to lower my carb intake. I understand a lower ldl # is not the end all BUT nonetheless I'm still trying to figure out if oatmeal deserves a spot in my life or not and if it does it will be because of the supposed health benefit.

Same thing re oat bran.

I already do consume flax and have recently added hemp seed too.

off topic
I have my recent lab results (not with me right now). How can you determine from the lab results if my lipid panel was "traditional" or VAP?
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Post: #6 RE: oatmeal question , 08-14-2012 01:39 PM


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The thing about oats and special LDL qualities is garbage.

Correlation does not equal causation, oldest mistake in the book.

One study says "this is associated with that," then an article prints "this may be a cause of," then "People who eat '-----' may have a reduced risk of possibly having differential aspects of something that may turn out to be related-maybe..."

Then food companies get ahold of it and print labels to trick people into buying everything to fix everything.
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Post: #7 RE: oatmeal question , 08-14-2012 03:57 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-14-2012 03:59 PM by Janknitz.)


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"It's not that I'm missing oatmeal. It's that supposedly oatmeal by virtue of it being oatmeal (and not anything that is NOT oatmeal) has special properties that can have postive effect upon ldl amongst its other nutritional benefits."

Peer reviewed evidence??? More than likely there ARE studies showing that oatmeal or oatbran has less impact on LDL than other cereal grains, but if there are studies showing some magical reduction in LDL from oats alone I'd like to see that.

And, so what if your LDL is over 100??? Doctors who think that LDL over 100 when othe indicators are good means increased cardiovascular risk and that statins will reduce risk especially in women have NOT read beyond the drug company literature.

If you go back and listen to two ATLCX interviews theres great info on statins and how to handle a doctor who pushes statins on you.

http://www.askthelowcarbexperts.com/2012...asterjohn/

http://www.askthelowcarbexperts.com/2012...ry-vernon/
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Post: #8 RE: oatmeal question , 08-14-2012 04:02 PM


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PS-- anyone who has a doctor pushing statins should read this: http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/alzhe...atins.html
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Post: #9 RE: oatmeal question , 08-14-2012 10:25 PM


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(08-14-2012 04:02 PM)Janknitz Wrote:  PS-- anyone who has a doctor pushing statins should read this: http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/alzhe...atins.html

It's also worth watching Sally Fallon's (and Mary Enig's) "The Oiling of America". Even if you find it far-fetched (I don't), at least you will see the polar opposite position. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvKdYUCUca8'
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Post: #10 RE: oatmeal question , 08-15-2012 12:07 AM


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Oatmeal is grass and grass has no place in a low carb diet.
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Post: #11 RE: oatmeal question , 08-15-2012 02:04 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-15-2012 02:08 AM by Texasgoldengirl.)


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I make most of my decisions about what to eat or not eat based on glucose readings after a meal. Oatmeal, even steel cut oats, makes my blood sugar rise.

Because the fiber in oats is soluble, it can supposedly lower cholesterol. Here's a quote from an about.com website....http://cholesterol.about.com/od/cholesterolnutrition101/f/howfiberworks.htm

Quote:Soluble fiber lowers cholesterol by binding to it in the small intestine. Once inside the small intestine, the fiber attaches to the cholesterol particles, preventing them from entering your bloodstream and traveling to other parts of the body. Instead, cholesterol will exit the body through the feces.

Soluble fiber appears to be only effective against your LDL cholesterol, so if you also need to lower your triglycerides, or boost your HDL, soluble fiber may not be able to help you with this since the effect can range from very slight to no benefit at all. Additionally, you should not solely rely on fiber to lower your cholesterol, since the effect is only slight (LDL cholesterol can decrease by at most 18%).

That is not the only problem with trying to lower cholesterol with oatmeal though for anyone who is either prediabetic, diabetic or insulin resistant. While the soluble fiber in oatmeal will in fact prevent some it from entering your bloodstream, it also can cause a blood sugar/glucagon imbalance because of the carbs.

The key to controlling cholesterol levels seems to be having the correct insulin and glucagon levels from what I have read. (I highly recommend the book "Protein Power" and their chapter entitled "Cholesterol Madness" for a better explanation).

Since oatmeal causes a blood sugar/insulin problem, the fact that it binds with cholesterol in our diet and carries some of it out of the body does little good if the body then compensates by making more cholesterol because our blood sugar/insulin is out of whack.

So yes, the soluble fiber does carry some cholesterol out of the body, but it is meaningless if the food itself causes an insulin/glucagon imbalance that just causes the body to start making and producing cholesterol like crazy.

The end result is the body makes a lot more cholesterol than the fiber carries out. For some people who are not diabetic or insulin resistant, steel cut oats might help but for those of us with blood sugar problems, the carbs more than negate the positive effect of the soluble fiber.

Since you don't crave oatmeal (which I don't blame you since I don't even particularly like the taste much less crave it myself), as a diabetic, I do believe you would be better off eating something a lot tastier with a lot less carbs.

Again, (I highly recommend the book "Protein Power" and their chapter entitled "Cholesterol Madness" for a better explanation). You might have to read the chapter a couple of times as it gets a little technical, but it is well worth the price of the book and a worthwhile read (imo).
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Post: #12 RE: oatmeal question , 08-15-2012 09:14 AM


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Isn't it true that triglycerides are a better marker of heart health than LDL or HDL? Ask your doctor about that and ask him for evidence that statins will reduce your heart attack risk before you agree to take them. This should slow him down for at least a week or two. I am sure that during that time you will be able to get your head around the whole cholesterol theory thing.

Try reading The Great Cholesterol Con. I found it explained things in laymans terms which even I could understand. Dr Attia went right over my head too!

My blog for freelance writers:

http://www.collinsquinlan.co.uk

I lost 50 pounds on a ketogenic diet early 2012. I have kept it off ever since on a low carb high fat diet. My weight is now stable and "normal" for the first time in my adult life Tongue
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Post: #13 RE: oatmeal question , 08-16-2012 11:56 AM


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OK I admit I really do enjoy oatmeal.
Had some yesterday (did a 50/50 oatbran/oatmeal mix) and added some ground flax and hemp seed.

this morning had a 88 on the glucose meter - which for me is fantastic.

Clearly I need to reread protein power and read the great cholesterol con.

Plus when oatmeal is all gone rethink repurchasing.

I do get A happening before B doesn't necessarily mean A caused B.

There's also the $ factor (oatmeal $ - even the "best" kind is just so much less costly than grass fed animal and/or dairy).
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Post: #14 RE: oatmeal question , 08-16-2012 12:12 PM


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There is more to eating right than what the glucose meter says after eating. If you eat crushed ice for lunch, the glucose meter won't move but you didnt get nutrition either!

I guess you could say you are doing "Le Dukan," which is all about lean protein and oatmeal.

People have been adding grains to their diet to save money since civilization began. That allowed for cities and technology, but it still takes toll on health.
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Post: #15 RE: oatmeal question , 08-16-2012 12:18 PM


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oops forgot this:
1. also added some cocconut oil

2. I'm not as interested in "following a low carb lifestyle" as I am in being healthy - whatever that means.

If I can avoid high sugar numbers AND have oatmeal then I'm fine with that. If I'm going to be limiting my foods (both quality and quantity) then along with $, being selective on what I include makes my choices that much more important. I already consume a great deal of non-starchy (not organic) veggies and eggs. I do eat meat and cheese (non organic). I like yougurt and ricotta but they both raise my sugar.

I'm not planning on living forever - I just want to have a quality of life while I'm here (and shut the doctors up if possible) and that does include enjoying the foods I eat which I think should be as natural/unprocessed as possible. Ideally, I'd like to include oatmeal and yougurt.

I guess I'll just have to retesting my sugar more often.
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Post: #16 RE: oatmeal question , 08-16-2012 12:32 PM


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On 2 above- I agree. I'm interesting in eating right for health, and not interested in being married to anyone's "program."

When people keep saying the same thing over and over, it's like the only tool they have is a hammer so everything looks like a nail. Low carb/watching glucose is a pretty important tool but it's not all there is.

I don't stress over picking "organic" everything or grass-fed/pasture raised this or that. One does those things to be healthy or get healthy, but everything has a diminished return as costs go up.

I would say eat up the oatmeal if you must have it, but ignore all that nonsense about LDL either way, it's garbage. It won't kill you, and it won't do much for you, but it's your body so...
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Post: #17 RE: oatmeal question , 08-16-2012 12:41 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2012 01:17 PM by Texasgoldengirl.)


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(08-16-2012 11:56 AM)shmabby1098 Wrote:  OK I admit I really do enjoy oatmeal.
Had some yesterday (did a 50/50 oatbran/oatmeal mix) and added some ground flax and hemp seed.

this morning had a 88 on the glucose meter - which for me is fantastic.

Clearly I need to reread protein power and read the great cholesterol con.

Plus when oatmeal is all gone rethink repurchasing.

I do get A happening before B doesn't necessarily mean A caused B.

There's also the $ factor (oatmeal $ - even the "best" kind is just so much less costly than grass fed animal and/or dairy).

I hear ya when it comes to expense. I struggle with that myself being on social security right now as my only income until I turn 65 and start getting some other retirement money.

I don't buy grass fed beef. There is no way I can afford that right now. I splurge once in a while and get a bunless bison burger at a local grill. Otherwise, I am using regular old Walmart hamburger right now and taking fish oil and eating a lot of flax to compensate for the omega6 in the meat. Plus I am eating tuna two or three times a week which is inexpensive but something we shouldn't over do cuz of the mercury.

I also realize it would be better to buy cheese made from raw milk, but Walmart cheese will just have to do for right now.

I tried even using lentils which doesn't seem to negatively affect my blood sugar but I did notice that it affected my blood pressure.

When no starches at all of any kind, my blood pressure runs around 111 to 128. With starches it jumps up into to the 135 to 155 range.

Even Barry Sears (The Zone) who says it is okay to eat starches says to eat them as a condiment not as a source of protein. But the section in Protein Power will explain why controlling insulin/glucagon is the best thing you can do for cholesterol.
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Post: #18 RE: oatmeal question , 08-16-2012 12:54 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2012 12:56 PM by Janknitz.)


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(08-16-2012 11:56 AM)shmabby1098 Wrote:  OK I admit I really do enjoy oatmeal.
Had some yesterday (did a 50/50 oatbran/oatmeal mix) and added some ground flax and hemp seed.

this morning had a 88 on the glucose meter - which for me is fantastic.

FBG the next day tells you nothing about the immediate effect of eating oatmeal. To find that, you need to measure yor BG after eating the oatmeal. Timing may vary--when you are likely to peak after a meal is individual and you have to do some self experimentation to find the peak. Jenny Ruhl's Diabetes 101 site has some good instructions.

I love oatmeal, too, but I've made the choice not to eat any grains because I'm severely insulin resistant and my health depends on it. As a result I'm losing weight and my A1c is 5.4. I'd love to see it even lower, but im pleased to see already that my heart disease risk is low based on that score.

You're fortunate to be thin and not have the weight issue, but your A1c is a wake up call that all is not well. You owe it to yourself to test and find out if your body can really handle the oatmeal or not. Ultimately it's your choice. Dr. Cate Shannahan said something that I liked--if you are insulin resistant but in good condition and not obese, it may be ok to use grains like oatmeal as a "garnish" ie I can still eat my flax but sprinkle on a little oatmeal for texture. Not me, not now, but it is something to think about in the future. You may be there already, best way to know is to test.

It's interesting that you came into a group of low carbers, many of whom do not eat grains, to get justification to continue eating a carby grain. Perhaps deep down, you really know the answer and just need to hear it enough times.
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Post: #19 RE: oatmeal question , 08-16-2012 01:00 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2012 01:08 PM by Janknitz.)


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Nobody answered your question: "I have my recent lab results (not with me right now). How can you determine from the lab results if my lipid panel was "traditional" or VAP?"

If you didn't specifically request AND PAY FOR a VAP it was a standard lipid panel. Standard lipid panels are still useful to see your HDL, trigs, and to calculate ratios. It's just important not to put too much faith in single numbers like total cholesterol or LDL-c
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Post: #20 RE: oatmeal question , 08-16-2012 01:50 PM


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if VAP is done along with the standard 6 mos blood work, will the phrase "VAP" be what I'm looking for on the lab results?

Dr. hasn't done VAP, just "regular" and will do "regular" again in 6 mos BUT depending upon the next 6 mos results she may do VAP or NMR the next time.

I'm just trying to figure out how to find it on the lab results.

RE the oatmeal saga:
Seems as though (tested at 4 hour after meal and bs was 101) it IS causing me spikes. I'll test again at 2 hour. I suspect it will have to leave my regular food choices.
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