So this topic comes up a lot in these forums, and I thought I'd try to lay it to rest with a top-level post. This information comes from Gary Taubes' lecture last summer, which can be seen here:

http://www.dhslides.org/mgr/mgr060509f/f.htm

Check it out from about 45:00 to the zinger that comes in at about 52:50.

In a nutshell: Almost all hormones in the body (except insulin) tell the fat tissue "dump fatty acids into the bloodstream so we have fuel available." They move fat out of the fat tissues. Insulin does just the opposite. It moves fat into the fat tissues. Additionally, the hormones that metabolize fat, including HGH, can't do their jobs if insulin levels are elevated - the insulin always trumps. If you eat carbohydrates, you elevate your insulin levels. If you elevate your insulin levels, none of the fat-metabolizing hormones can do their jobs.

So you have to lower your insulin levels in order to burn body fat. Otherwise, the body holds on to what it has in the fat cells, and your dietary fat gets stored as well. BUT! In order for insulin to store fat in the fat cells, it needs a particular substance called "glycerol-3 phosphate" to break the dietary fat down into fatty acids. Otherwise they can't get into the tissues.

Guess what glycerol-3 phosphate is produced from?

If you guessed "dietary carbs," you got it in one. The body can't produce very much of it at all on its own.

So if you aren't eating any carbs, your body doesn't have the substances necessary to move dietary fat into the cells. Therefore, the dietary fat that doesn't get immediately used by the body gets flushed out as waste. And since your body needs fuel all the time, even when you aren't eating, if there's no dietary fat around to burn, it'll burn adipose tissue - stored body fat - because you aren't eating carbs to stimulate insulin to block the other hormones that metabolize fat, or to produce glycerol-3 phosphate from glucose metabolism.

This is why we can eat very low-carb or no-carb diets, with their huge amounts of fat, and not gain weight and actually lose weight. The carbs DO matter. I know a lot of people here don't want to hear that, but Mark Sisson's carbohydrate curve is correct. Get above 100 carbs or so a day and you're asking for trouble. No, it's not Atkins, but the fact remains that the more carbs you eat with your fats and proteins, the more likely it is that those fats will be stored instead of used or flushed out. And you'll gain weight.

I try never to go above 50 carbs per day maximum, and my weight is still coming off at a rate of about two pounds a week, and my blood sugars are still hanging out right around the 90-95 range. Half of an avocado or a single handful of berries is enough carbs and then some. I am determined to deprive my body of glycerol-3 phosphate whenever possible, since that's the real mover and shaker when it comes to fat storage.

Go watch the vid, too.

I finally understand. You explained in terms that make sense to me. I have never been able to "get" the technical explanation. Thank you so much!

BIG HUGS FROM THE SWAMP

That's a great explanation of what Taubes is saying. Thanks for the info.

Unfortunately, I think you'll find some of the people on this board have been able to gain on an extremely low carb diet. I can't reconcile it with what Taubes is saying here...but it seem to happen with some people.

About a month ago via an email to Jimmy, Taubes acknowledged the lack of research to validate the notion about 'getting to goal weight' while doing VLC while eating unlimited quantities of fat. I'll try to find the link later on today.

Griff, your control of blood sugars have been phenomenal, along with the side effect of weight loss. From peeping at your logs, I can see your intake has been about 2000 or less calories a day and you don't seem to have any problems with impulsive snacking between meals. I think you'll reach your goal of 220 lbs eating the way you do. Should you decide then to get below 200 lbs, I think you'll run into the idea that one must slightly decrease fat intake too...not a radical cut mind you.
While we could eat an 85% fat: 15% protein daily intake, most people's experience is that the weight loss occurs as long as total caloric consumption remains BELOW the equilibrium point at which they stall. Even protein causes an insulin increase..not as bad as carbs though. As well, there has been some discussion here lately about mechanisms other than insulin by which our bodies can store fat.
So, I don't think we could quite lay this issue to rest yet.
Helen

(02-07-2010 05:47 PM)wannabelowcarb Wrote:  About a month ago via an email to Jimmy, Taubes acknowledged the lack of research to validate the notion about 'getting to goal weight' while doing VLC while eating unlimited quantities of fat. I'll try to find the link later on today.

I love research, but I'll take my own personal experience any day! I got to goal weight (well really, goal SIZE) eating a high fat diet. Am I the exception to the rule? Perhaps. But I doubt it.

And actually take a look at Mark Sisson's abs if you get a chance. (Dang, I used to have the picture but can't find it right now!). I first came across Mark's Daily Apple because I found this smokin' hot picture of Mark Sisson with his ripped abs and it said something like, "I'm 50 years old, eat a high fat diet and do no cardio." I was in love. ;-)

There are growing numbers of us who have reached our goals on a high fat diet. I think it's getting harder and harder for these results to be denied.

I'll try to post a "before" picture for me when I get a chance. Trust me, it's tough, because I've gotten rid of most of those. ;-)

Protein becomes glucose if and when the body needs it. Glucose is glucose and is necessary. It can increase your insulin levels but I do not believe that it is a significant enough spike to cause any fat storage. It is necessary to turn your eyes to vitamin D. It does improve insulin stability when taken at the right dose. Therefore, if you are doing everything right perhaps there is a vitamin D insufficiency problem that should be addressed.

Hi Kim: no, I don't think you are an exception, and I'm happy to hear you got to your goal weight.
I think me, you, and Griff too, have youth-youth on our side. I've stalled at 2400 kcal/day and I would bet that you can probably consume about that much and still be lean. When I manage about 2100/day I drop a few kgs.But there are middle-age people here (40+) who consume high fat and don't lose unless their intake is about 1500 or less. My point is that the younger you are, the easier it is to reach goal because we run thru more calories.
Helen

(02-07-2010 06:16 PM)wannabelowcarb Wrote:  My point is that the younger you are, the easier it is to reach goal because we run thru more calories.
Helen

Hi Helen. I do see your point. I am over 40, but I did lose the 70+ pounds when I was in my 30s.

Kim,
Is that your stomach?

If the only way one can become obese is to eat a high carb diet, how come 3% of the Masai group studied were obese? Not a large percent, but they are there.

The Masai eat beef, beef and more beef with cows mlik thrown in or blood. Otherwise it is an all beef diet. Now the Masai eat grass fed beef not corn fed beef. So I assume they have less fat marbeling that we have in our grocery stores.

Since that is all they eat, according to the theory, they should not become obese. BUT -- 3 percent do. And evidently they were OBESE not just overweight. We know nothing about these 3%. Men? Women? the Elderly? No information is given.

More research is needed.

(02-07-2010 07:22 PM)Benay Wrote:  If the only way one can become obese is to eat a high carb diet, how come 3% of the Masai group studied were obese? Not a large percent, but they are there.

The Masai eat beef, beef and more beef with cows mlik thrown in or blood. Otherwise it is an all beef diet. Now the Masai eat grass fed beef not corn fed beef. So I assume they have less fat marbeling that we have in our grocery stores.

Since that is all they eat, according to the theory, they should not become obese. BUT -- 3 percent do. And evidently they were OBESE not just overweight. We know nothing about these 3%. Men? Women? the Elderly? No information is given.

More research is needed.

I think you forgot that beef is both fat and protein. Protein gets converted to glucose if it is available in excess. In that case, it causes an increase in insulin. If beef were only fat, it would be a different story.
Dave

Also, they eat cow's milk (as posted). That's pretty high carb. I finally looked a the label of 1% milk in the fridge and 1 cup has 14 grams of sugar! (and 15 grams carbs).

I am starting my new eating plan tomorrow, and milk won't be part of it! I got a recipe for low carb milk off another forum (a knock off of the now defunct Hood Carb Countdown milk), and I'll be using that in my tea.

If anyone wants the recipe let me know. It's a pretty creative milk recipe.

(02-07-2010 07:15 PM)Hogsfan Wrote:  Kim,
Is that your stomach?

Hogsfan, that's various parts of me. ;-)

Holy crap. Wow! Good job! You look great!

Hi,long time I haven't posted here.I just wanna express my opinion here.

Stop with the eat all the fat you want as long as you stay low in carbs.Why do people have to push this idea.Its as bad as the one started awhile back that its dietary fat and only dietary fat that causes you to gain fat.Now the LC disciples push carbohydrate.Go on Body For Life and watch the pounds melt off with alot of carbs eaten.Taubes I am sad to say pushes this idea also.There are also many people high up in the LC world that are becoming obese with this high fat is healthy "idea" they embark on.

I ask you people this question.How is it that carnivores like bears get fat on salmon.If you watch Meerkat manor,these small animals fatten up on bugs.Are we humans that different than the animal kingdom that we live by insulin alone?I just don't understand why such intelligent people can push this eat all the fat you want?Every LC guru looks fat lately and it bothers me to no end that they keep piling fat and more fat on their plates.

Yes the Eades all of a sudden go protein shake low calorie/quick reversal that calories just do not count.Mike Eades will point a finger saying people are not doing it right and are "carb creeping" in carbs. Why not just eat a little less fat.

Thanks for listening.

(02-07-2010 09:49 PM)wolfstriked Wrote:  Hi,long time I haven't posted here.I just wanna express my opinion here.

Stop with the eat all the fat you want as long as you stay low in carbs.

I never said "eat all the fat you want." I'm tired of people twisting what I say, as you have done. I would like you to point to exactly where I said that.

Once you've realized you can't point to it, since I didn't say that, I would like an apology.

(02-07-2010 06:21 PM)delmoki Wrote:  

(02-07-2010 06:16 PM)wannabelowcarb Wrote:  My point is that the younger you are, the easier it is to reach goal because we run thru more calories.
Helen

Hi Helen. I do see your point. I am over 40, but I did lose the 70+ pounds when I was in my 30s.

Well, I started low carbing when I was 45 and had no trouble at all losing 50 pounds by eating a lot of fat. I'm 52 now and still maintaining (and losing when I need to when I've been naughty) while eating even more fat than I did when I started. If I'm an exception, I'm very happy to be one.

I agree with Griff. I don't eat mountains of fat but it's nice that I don't have to worry about how much I do eat. I also have no reason to stuff myself to the gills when I can eat as much as I need to satisfy my hunger. And, if I eat a little more than usual one day, I'll probably eat a little less the next day so it all evens out in the end.

Lindasue, I am 56 years old and am beginning my low carb diet tomorrow. I have no plans on limiting fat. It is great to see you lost your 50 pounds in your 40's. I am hoping lowcarbing will work as well for me.

I wish you success, newway.

Griff,I don't wanna offend or tinkle anyone off.Its just that the whole post says this.

""Why dietary fat won't make you fat UNLESS you eat carbs with it!"" is the headline of your post first off.

In order for insulin to store fat in the fat cells, it needs a particular substance called "glycerol-3 phosphate" to break the dietary fat down into fatty acids. Otherwise they can't get into the tissues.

Guess what glycerol-3 phosphate is produced from?

If you guessed "dietary carbs," you got it in one. The body can't produce very much of it at all on its own.

So if you aren't eating any carbs, your body doesn't have the substances necessary to move dietary fat into the cells. Therefore, the dietary fat that doesn't get immediately used by the body gets flushed out as waste. And since your body needs fuel all the time, even when you aren't eating, if there's no dietary fat around to burn, it'll burn adipose tissue - stored body fat - because you aren't eating carbs to stimulate insulin to block the other hormones that metabolize fat, or to produce glycerol-3 phosphate from glucose metabolism.

This is why we can eat very low-carb or no-carb diets, with their huge amounts of fat, and not gain weight and actually lose weight. The carbs DO matter.

<<<<<I follow Kwasnieski diet and that diet is geared towards low insulin levels.I will not lose weight unless if start trimming fat.Example is for a few weeks I was doing 4tbps butter with meals and cut that to 2tbsps butter and I lose weight.I go back to 4tbsps per meal and my pants get tight and quickly.