niacin/fish oil
niacin/fish oil , 02-26-2010 01:46 PM


Expert Low-Carber


In another thread there is discussion about fish oil elevating FBS. I've been on fish oil and niacin therapy since my LPP test last June. I've read that niacin therapy (to reduce cholesterol) can cause an elevated FBS as can fish oil. Does anyone here supplement w/niacin? I have been on 1,500 mg daily since last summer and my A1c was unaffected on the last series of blood tests in November. Here is what happened with lipid profile: LDL calculated went from 133 down to 102, triglycerides were the same 120, homocysteine went from 7.6 up to 12, cholesterol from 214 down to 181, HDL went down 2 points from 56 to 54. I find that kind of funny since niacin is supposed to improve HDL to LDL ratio by elevating HDL? I'm going my 2nd LPP done next week to get the whole picture. When I had it done last June and was angry to discover I was in the 'high' risk category on the following: LDL CEQ-133, metabolic syndrome traits 2, LDL total 990, RLP 176, dense LDL III 406, LDL phenotype/size 19.82. The borderlines were: total cholesterol 214, dense LDL IV 122. The good: HDL-CEQ 56, Triglycerides 120, c-reactive protein .04, insulin 5.5, homocysteine 7.6, HDL total 10391, buoyant HDL 2b 2041, Lp(a) less than 1. A lot of what was contained in the LPP report was Greek to me, but I do know I need to make improvements. The doctor suggested the fish oil and niacin at higher doses after my LPP tests to see if it improves the next time. Will let you all know when the results are back in March.

Kathy Coe
CFT, SPN, MT
Refinery Fitness Center
RE: niacin/fish oil , 02-26-2010 05:43 PM


Expert Low-Carber


How much fish oil are you taking?

Mackay Rippey

Has your weight loss stalled because your body clock is out of sync?
RE: niacin/fish oil , 02-27-2010 12:52 AM


Expert Low-Carber



It varies, but most days I take 2-4 coromega packets which supply 2.5 grams of fish oil each. I also add krill, cod liver oil & DHA to my supplements. Guestimating around 8-10 grams daily total of fish oil.

Kathy Coe
CFT, SPN, MT
Refinery Fitness Center
RE: niacin/fish oil , 02-27-2010 01:50 AM


Expert Low-Carber


Kathy, you may want to read this article: http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fishoil.shtml
I've changed my stance on fish oil since I realized it effected my blood sugar control, but I also still go back and forth about it, because at first it did help to stabilize my mood swings. But I also know that if I just stick to very low carb diet, my mood stays even, so who knows. Sorry to muddy the waters, just wanted to give you the link to where there are differing opinions.

I do know that polyunsaturated oils are extremely volatile and easily oxidized to become inflammatory; at the amounts you are taking, it might be the cause of the LDL woes.

Ellen
http://www.healthy-eating-politics.com
http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com
RE: niacin/fish oil , 02-27-2010 10:55 AM


Expert Low-Carber


I've changed my stance on fish oil since I realized it effected my blood sugar control, but I also still go back and forth about it, because at first it did help to stabilize my mood swings. But I also know that if I just stick to very low carb diet, my mood stays even, so who knows. Sorry to muddy the waters, just wanted to give you the link to where there are differing opinions.

I do know that polyunsaturated oils are extremely volatile and easily oxidized to become inflammatory; at the amounts you are taking, it might be the cause of the LDL woes.
Thanks for the heads up That article makes you wonder if fish oil is being made into the new 'wonder child' like health fads from the past like soy. Since PUFA's are highly unstable molecules, it makes sense that they would increase free radicals. I never would have suspected fish oil being culprit in raising LDL's......but now you have me thinking. I'll have to do some more reading on this. Bodybuilders avoid taking too much fish oil due to the reduction in inflammatory response. You need it for muscle healing and repair. Are we shutting down a natural response that our bodies need for important functions like immune response? The fish oils have not kicked up my A1c or BS readings, but I take a million other supplements that may play a part in the overall picture.

Kathy Coe
CFT, SPN, MT
Refinery Fitness Center
RE: niacin/fish oil , 02-28-2010 01:37 AM


Expert Low-Carber


It's important to remember that ANY food based nutrient, when extracted, refined and concentrated, is no longer a food, but a "drug."

Mackay Rippey

Has your weight loss stalled because your body clock is out of sync?
RE: niacin/fish oil , 02-28-2010 03:19 PM


Expert Low-Carber


I've changed my stance on fish oil since I realized it effected my blood sugar control, but I also still go back and forth about it, because at first it did help to stabilize my mood swings. But I also know that if I just stick to very low carb diet, my mood stays even, so who knows. Sorry to muddy the waters, just wanted to give you the link to where there are differing opinions.

I do know that polyunsaturated oils are extremely volatile and easily oxidized to become inflammatory; at the amounts you are taking, it might be the cause of the LDL woes.
Thanks for the heads up That article makes you wonder if fish oil is being made into the new 'wonder child' like health fads from the past like soy. Since PUFA's are highly unstable molecules, it makes sense that they would increase free radicals. I never would have suspected fish oil being culprit in raising LDL's......but now you have me thinking. I'll have to do some more reading on this. Bodybuilders avoid taking too much fish oil due to the reduction in inflammatory response. You need it for muscle healing and repair. Are we shutting down a natural response that our bodies need for important functions like immune response? The fish oils have not kicked up my A1c or BS readings, but I take a million other supplements that may play a part in the overall picture.


Skcoe, is it possible to remove all supplements, say 6 weeks, for a while, then gradually add them back to see what happens? Also, what is happeneing to your triglycerides. Are they coming down at all?

I just purchased a big expensive bottle of fish oil to help my husband to lower his triglycerides. The capsules are as big as a Texas roach and he can't swallow them. That might be a good thing, but now all that money is going down the drain...that's okay. I won't take them now since I discovered that I am pre-diabetic.
RE: niacin/fish oil , 02-28-2010 03:38 PM


Expert Low-Carber


Omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) for type 2 diabetes mellitusThis Cochrane study is worth reading if you have concerns about the effect of fish oil on fasting glucose.
Twenty-one of the 23 trials reported fasting glucose results, of which only sixteen with 930 participants reported their results in such a way to enable pooled analysis. The weighted mean difference was 0.16 mmol/L showing that omega-3 supplementation did not significantly change fasting glucose compared to controls.

Omega-3 supplementation did not result in any statistically significant increase in fasting glucose, HbA1c, or fasting insulin.

I always go for the concentrated capsules that provide the maximum EPA + DHA content ie 500mg EPA + 250MG DHA =750mg omega 3 per capsule.


I'm also still taking Niacin. See what Dr Davis says here
RE: niacin/fish oil , 02-28-2010 05:08 PM


Expert Low-Carber


I've changed my stance on fish oil since I realized it effected my blood sugar control, but I also still go back and forth about it, because at first it did help to stabilize my mood swings. But I also know that if I just stick to very low carb diet, my mood stays even, so who knows. Sorry to muddy the waters, just wanted to give you the link to where there are differing opinions.

I do know that polyunsaturated oils are extremely volatile and easily oxidized to become inflammatory; at the amounts you are taking, it might be the cause of the LDL woes.
Thanks for the heads up That article makes you wonder if fish oil is being made into the new 'wonder child' like health fads from the past like soy. Since PUFA's are highly unstable molecules, it makes sense that they would increase free radicals. I never would have suspected fish oil being culprit in raising LDL's......but now you have me thinking. I'll have to do some more reading on this. Bodybuilders avoid taking too much fish oil due to the reduction in inflammatory response. You need it for muscle healing and repair. Are we shutting down a natural response that our bodies need for important functions like immune response? The fish oils have not kicked up my A1c or BS readings, but I take a million other supplements that may play a part in the overall picture.


Skcoe, is it possible to remove all supplements, say 6 weeks, for a while, then gradually add them back to see what happens? Also, what is happeneing to your triglycerides. Are they coming down at all?

I just purchased a big expensive bottle of fish oil to help my husband to lower his triglycerides. The capsules are as big as a Texas roach and he can't swallow them. That might be a good thing, but now all that money is going down the drain...that's okay. I won't take them now since I discovered that I am pre-diabetic.
I've had my triglycerides in good control for the past 15 years. They pretty much stay around 120.....occasionally sneak up to 150....which isn't too bad. It

Kathy Coe
CFT, SPN, MT
Refinery Fitness Center
RE: niacin/fish oil , 02-28-2010 05:14 PM


Expert Low-Carber


Twenty-one of the 23 trials reported fasting glucose results, of which only sixteen with 930 participants reported their results in such a way to enable pooled analysis. The weighted mean difference was 0.16 mmol/L showing that omega-3 supplementation did not significantly change fasting glucose compared to controls.

Omega-3 supplementation did not result in any statistically significant increase in fasting glucose, HbA1c, or fasting insulin.

I always go for the concentrated capsules that provide the maximum EPA + DHA content ie 500mg EPA + 250MG DHA =750mg omega 3 per capsule.


I'm also still taking Niacin. See what Dr Davis says here
Ted, Are you also diabetic? If so, does taking niacin and fish oil effect your numbers negatively. What amounts are you using? That report seemed to indicate that a raise in LDL is more of a concern than raise in BS with fish oil supplementation......which is exaclty what I am dealing with. My A1c, triglycerides and sugars are good, but small dense LDL is bad.

Kathy Coe
CFT, SPN, MT
Refinery Fitness Center
RE: niacin/fish oil , 02-28-2010 06:44 PM


Expert Low-Carber


I think I may be. I haven't done a test with 60 - 70 grams of fast acting carbohydrate yet as I've been low carbing (around 50g carbs daily) for the last couple of years so would need to do some carb loading to get a fair result.) However I've only been testing less than a month and I'm getting far too many readings above 140ng/ml.

Quote:If so, does taking niacin and fish oil effect your numbers negatively.
It's possible but I'm not sure as yet. When I've dealt with the spikes I'll have to concentrate on fasting glucose levels.

Quote:What amounts are you using?
1g Niacin at night and 2g omega 3 daily
Quote:That report seemed to indicate that a raise in LDL is more of a concern than raise in BS with fish oil supplementation......which is exaclty what I am dealing with.
But what matters is the small dense LDL and they are reduced
as HDL is increased with Niacin and triglycerides are reduced.
RE: niacin/fish oil , 02-28-2010 08:51 PM


Expert Low-Carber


Thanks Ted for sharing your knowledge! I was reading over on Matt Stones site and stumbled across a comment that struck me.......If you aren't confused by nutrition, you haven't been researching it long enough! I guess we are all guinea pigs on some level here.

Kathy Coe
CFT, SPN, MT
Refinery Fitness Center
RE: niacin/fish oil , 02-28-2010 09:39 PM


Advanced Low-Carber



Suzan
My blog: Suzan's Spot
RE: niacin/fish oil , 03-01-2010 10:18 PM


Expert Low-Carber



Yes, I've found myself thinking, really, would paleolithic man have taken fish oil? Maybe I'll just eat fish once or twice a week.

Ellen
http://www.healthy-eating-politics.com
http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com
RE: niacin/fish oil , 03-02-2010 08:10 AM


Expert Low-Carber


While I agree we should buy foods as natural as possible and that over time this should be sufficient to maintain a healthy body, the trouble is most people currently have deficiencies that need correcting and can only afford to buy the most commonly available foods.
Ideally we should be able to get all our vitamin D3 from sun exposure but this simply isn't a practical solution for most working adults and people living in towns.

While wild caught fish should be high in omega 3 much of the farmed fish we buy is higher in omega 6 that would have been the case in paleo times.

To correct the current imbalance (most people have too much omega 6 in relation to omega 3) takes time and will only occur if there is always sufficient omega 3 always available, which is why we have to consider taking a concentrated high EPA + DHA omega 3 intake while also eliminating industrial vegetable oils such as corn, soybean, safflower and sunflower oil, and the foods that contains them.
RE: niacin/fish oil , 12-27-2010 12:58 PM


Newbie Low-Carber


Quote:What amounts are you using?
1g Niacin at night and 2g omega 3 daily
Quote:That report seemed to indicate that a raise in LDL is more of a concern than raise in BS with fish oil supplementation......which is exaclty what I am dealing with.
But what matters is the small dense LDL and they are reduced
as HDL is increased with Niacin and triglycerides are reduced.
[/quote]

Hi Ted, would you mind sharing which brands you use for Niacin and Omega 3? thanks !

--Dave
low carbing since 1997
RE: niacin/fish oil , 03-28-2011 01:21 AM


Advanced Low-Carber


RE: niacin/fish oil , 03-28-2011 07:31 AM


Expert Low-Carber


Do you really mean 1-2 tablespoons ? or actually 1-2 teaspoons?
The Carlson's fish oil provides in each
Omega-3 Fatty Acids 1600 mg
EPA (Eicosapentaenoic Acid) 800 mg
DHA (Docosahexaenoc Acid) 500 mg
Other Omega-3 Fatty Acids 300 mg
Omega-3 Fatty Acids 1,150 mg
EPA (Eicosapentaenoic Acid) 650 mg
DHA (Docosahexaenoic Acid) 450 mg
Other Omega 3 Fatty Acids 50 mg
and I only take 2 tsp daily to get just over 2g omega 3 daily
Using the Carlsons would require only 1 and a bit teaspoons.

If you are avoiding omega 6 industrial seed/grain oils like corn, soyabean cottonseed oils and using coconut oil for cooking/baking with butter and olive oil I doubt you really need to take up to 2 TABLESPOONS of the Carlsons.
That could be 240 calories and really if you took just 2g of omega 3 that would be just 50 calories.
So I think you could safely save 190 calories by reducing your fish oil intake by just taking 2 small teaspoons (saves spilling the fish oil) each with about 10ml of fish oil. (about 2 thirds full)

For vronp the niacin I'm using is Twinlab, Niacin ( B-3 ) Caps It's a tad cheaper at Vitacost. but their shiping to UK is more. So for UK IHERB newbies CODE WAB666 saves $5. Keep order below £18 or our PO charges £8 to collect the 20% VAT. If your order is £18 or more DHL charge only £1.25 to collect the tax and they are faster and the tracking means you know when it's going to be delivered.

Bear in mind there seems to be a BEGINNERS LUCK element to low carbohydrate weight loss in that the first timers seem to be advantaged. That's one reason why it's important for newbies to get good advice and keep going till they reach target and then stay with the maintenance regime without going back to those foods we know raise BG high and fast. It seems to be the case that once you've lost a lot of weight low carbing previously, then regained weight through not low carbing, it's much harder the second time round to match the performance you achieved on your initial low carb attempt.

When I started I found it hard to understand why others were having problems and why they didn't manage to achieve their target or why they regained. I think there are a lot of reasons to account for why it's easier for some than others (and your sex is one of them that you can't do anything about) but I think people should be aware that LC isn't just a DIET in the sense of a quick method to lose weight, but rather a way of eating for the future that should keep you a reasonable weight and reduces the risk for Alzheimer's, cancer, heart disease and diabetes and other outcomes associated with Metabolic syndrome.
RE: niacin/fish oil , 03-29-2011 01:16 AM


Advanced Low-Carber


Quote:Do you really mean 1-2 tablespoons ? or actually 1-2 teaspoons?

Yep. 1-2 tablespoons. I was doing a pretty intense workout program and they had us taking large quantities of fish oil.

Quote:Bear in mind there seems to be a BEGINNERS LUCK element to low carbohydrate weight loss in that the first timers seem to be advantaged. That's one reason why it's important for newbies to get good advice and keep going till they reach target and then stay with the maintenance regime without going back to those foods we know raise BG high and fast. It seems to be the case that once you've lost a lot of weight low carbing previously, then regained weight through not low carbing, it's much harder the second time round to match the performance you achieved on your initial low carb attempt.

When I started I found it hard to understand why others were having problems and why they didn't manage to achieve their target or why they regained. I think there are a lot of reasons to account for why it's easier for some than others (and your sex is one of them that you can't do anything about) but I think people should be aware that LC isn't just a DIET in the sense of a quick method to lose weight, but rather a way of eating for the future that should keep you a reasonable weight and reduces the risk for Alzheimer's, cancer, heart disease and diabetes and other outcomes associated with Metabolic syndrome.

I am discovering "beginners luck, the hard way". I agree about a way of eating. Like most that lost weight on Atkins, I was bombarded with well meaning advice to quit before I kill myself. The minute I got off, the weight came back. I keep looking for the magic key that will accelerate my weight loss. I did find that I was not drinking enough water. I corrected that. I will cut way back on the fish oil as the only oil I use is coconut and olive oil.

I'll keep eating right and exercising and eventually I will get there.

Krush
RE: niacin/fish oil , 03-29-2011 06:26 AM


Expert Low-Carber


So long as you find the exercise fun. I'm disabled and more or less sedentary. I lost ALL my weight and have managed NOT to regain without any ADDITIONAL exercise although having lost weight I find it much easier to get about so am somewhat more active than before.
It's good to exercise and it's good to have fun.
Exercise as part of a fun activity is what it's all about.

The look of sheer misery and anguish on the faces of most people who come jogging past my kitchen window is indicative of the suffering they are inflicting on their bodies. If they looked like they were having fun then I'd be happy for them but I'm convinced they'd do better to lose weight first and leave the exercise till they were physically up to it and it came naturally. Although it's possible some specialised exercise regimes could lead to weight loss I'm not convinced self torture is conducive to a healthy mind/body. That's not to say that increasing the amount of walking you do in your daily life such as walking further on your journey to work and at the workplace, won't be helpful. Getting up, moving around during the day, even standing while working on the computer, will all be useful to improve heart/lung function.