High LDL-P?
 High LDL-P? , 01-06-2013 06:03 PM


Newbie Low-Carber


I've been doing a very low carb, ketogenic diet now for several months and it has been working very well for me. For example, it has resolved my type 2 diabetes. I was taking the max dosage of Metformin plus 130 units of insulin a day & now take NO meds at all for it, with normal fasting blood sugars (last A1c was 5.4). As a side effect, I've also dropped 80 lbs. So that's all incredibly good!

But I recently had a lipid profile done by Health Diagnostics Lab. And the LDL-P number was elevated at 1886 & Apo B at 85. I remembered that you had also seen similar elevation on your recent testing. I listened to the recent podcast with Dr Thomas Dayspring (since he IS Dr Lipid!) and this seems to be an unstudied area for folks on a ketogenic diet. His guess seemed to be to cut back on saturated fat to improve that number (maybe substituting mono-unsaturates?). Anyway, since high numbers there DO seem to be linked to atherosclerosis in epidemiological studies, I don't feel comfortable just waiting to see (I've already had bypass surgery).

So my question for you is: have you been able to pull together any info from any of the experts on possible best ways to lower the LDL-P? The conventional answer seems to be to get on a statin, and possibly add niacin. But do we have any other avenues?
RE: High LDL-P? , 01-06-2013 09:42 PM


Expert Low-Carber


Mark, is this your first NMR?

I have similar numbers, and the question I have is whether they may actually be coming down from much higher levels before I adopted a better diet? I decided not to get too worried until I know how the numbers are trending, so I'm going to repeat the test in 3 or 6 months.

Out of curiosity, how did your LDL-P compare to your standard lipid panel HDL, Trigs, and LDL-C?
RE: High LDL-P? , 01-07-2013 08:56 AM


Newbie Low-Carber



I have similar numbers, and the question I have is whether they may actually be coming down from much higher levels before I adopted a better diet? I decided not to get too worried until I know how the numbers are trending, so I'm going to repeat the test in 3 or 6 months.

Out of curiosity, how did your LDL-P compare to your standard lipid panel HDL, Trigs, and LDL-C?
It is the first NMR. On the standard panel: In 6 months the Trigs went from 133 to 91(Yay low carb!), the HDL went from 36 to 41 (a small but good trend), and the LDL-C also rose from 61 to 106. Those are all fairly decent, and based on the latest thinking, I was not too concerned with them. But the scientific powers-that-be say there's a much stronger correlation with atherosclerosis and high LDL-P & Apo B.

I too plan to get a repeat NMR in a few months, but if there's some tweaking that might be done to the diet, I figured "Why not?"
RE: High LDL-P? , 01-07-2013 02:58 PM


Administrator


Right now, I'm not doing anything about it because of all my other numbers doing so well (low CRP, zero heart scan score, triglycerides under 50, HDL over 50, etc.). Here's an interesting take from a physician about his high LDL-P:

http://azsunfm.blogspot.com/2012/09/font...amily.html

Jimmy Moore, "Livin' La Vida Low-Carb Discussion" forum owner
2009 BOOK: http://tinyurl.com/yh6smyy
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ATLCX PODCAST: http://ww.askthelowcarbexperts.com
LOW-CARB CONVERSATIONS PODCAST: http://www.lowcarbconversations.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/livinlowcarbman
E-MAIL ME: livinlowcarbman@charter.net
RE: High LDL-P? , 01-08-2013 12:54 AM


Newbie Low-Carber


A very interesting read in the link...Thanks for your input!
RE: High LDL-P? , 01-08-2013 02:29 AM


Expert Low-Carber


Thanks for the link, Jimmy.

I get the feeling not much is known about LDL-p and low carb. Like I said, I'm going to wait to see how it's trending since my lipid profile is great. The heart scan and artery test are out of my reach, but I feel too good to worry without more evidence to the contrary.
RE: High LDL-P? , 01-09-2013 11:56 AM


Administrator


Jan, you're right...there's not much about LDL-P and low-carb...and Dr. Dayspring said as much when I spoke with him. I'm like you...not gonna get all worked up about this since the rest of my health is so stellar.

Jimmy Moore, "Livin' La Vida Low-Carb Discussion" forum owner
2009 BOOK: http://tinyurl.com/yh6smyy
OFFICIAL WEB SITE: http://www.livinlavidalowcarb.com
FACEBOOK: http://www.facebook.com/LLVLC
TWITTER: http://twitter.com/livinlowcarbman
BLOG: http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog
ATLCX PODCAST: http://ww.askthelowcarbexperts.com
LOW-CARB CONVERSATIONS PODCAST: http://www.lowcarbconversations.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/livinlowcarbman
E-MAIL ME: livinlowcarbman@charter.net
RE: High LDL-P? , 01-09-2013 09:32 PM


Junior Low-Carber


It common for ldl-p to go up while losing weight. It'll be very interesting to know if your particle counts start going down once your mass has stabilized. Still hypo-caloric ?

Hep
RE: High LDL-P? , 01-14-2013 01:58 AM


Newbie Low-Carber



Hep
I have had the same issue as mentioned above:

Before I started a low carb diet, I was eating what I thought to be a healthy diet: high carb/low fat. My lipids at the time were Trig 59, HDL 62, and LDL 57. My weight was fine - about 168lbs, 6'2".

Then I went on a low carb diet. My weight dropped from 168 to 148. There were some bumps in the road with symptoms: leg cramps being one of them, but those have improved.

I checked my lipids at 3 months and the HDL went up to 88, Trigs went down to 50, but my LDL went up from 57 to 139! I told myself that this was likely due to the weight loss and I should wait another 3-4 months. I also told myself that perhaps my LDL-p was stellar (although I had never checked it before.)

So, 4 months later, I rechecked my lipids and got a NMR profile from Liposcience. My Trigs went up to 69, my HDL went up again from 88 to 98, and my LDL went from 139 to 137 (no significant change.) My LDL-p is 1185, which is not terrible, but certainly not great either.


My plan now is to decrease the fat intake somewhat (perhaps stop eating so much red meat, etc) and actually eat some carbs (whole grains) and wait 4-6 months and re-test with the NMR lipoprofile at that time.

Thoughts?
RE: High LDL-P? , 01-14-2013 11:39 AM


Junior Low-Carber



Hep
I have had the same issue as mentioned above:

Before I started a low carb diet, I was eating what I thought to be a healthy diet: high carb/low fat. My lipids at the time were Trig 59, HDL 62, and LDL 57. My weight was fine - about 168lbs, 6'2".

Then I went on a low carb diet. My weight dropped from 168 to 148. There were some bumps in the road with symptoms: leg cramps being one of them, but those have improved.

I checked my lipids at 3 months and the HDL went up to 88, Trigs went down to 50, but my LDL went up from 57 to 139! I told myself that this was likely due to the weight loss and I should wait another 3-4 months. I also told myself that perhaps my LDL-p was stellar (although I had never checked it before.)

So, 4 months later, I rechecked my lipids and got a NMR profile from Liposcience. My Trigs went up to 69, my HDL went up again from 88 to 98, and my LDL went from 139 to 137 (no significant change.) My LDL-p is 1185, which is not terrible, but certainly not great either.


My plan now is to decrease the fat intake somewhat (perhaps stop eating so much red meat, etc) and actually eat some carbs (whole grains) and wait 4-6 months and re-test with the NMR lipoprofile at that time.

Thoughts?
With healthy arteries and low stress those numbers most likely mean you're gonna be around a LONG time. Good job. I would predict lower HDL after your carbs experiment, as well as higher TBARS, IR, etc... Please report back with results!
RE: High LDL-P? , 01-17-2013 01:21 AM


Newbie Low-Carber


So based on the posts here, it does look like high LDL-P may well be an effect that some people see from low carb. Question is does that link to bad heart problems as in the general population... and the research hasn't been done yet.

Personally, I don't feel that increasing carbs is an option for me. The advantages of the diabetes resolution are too big to mess with. My ketone levels in the evening (1-1.5) don't indicate deep ketosis... I'm going to try Dr Dayspring's recommendation to try cutting saturated fat; I'll up the mono-unsaturated. And also add some slow resistance training... Then get another NMR profile in a few months to see what changes.
RE: High LDL-P? , 01-18-2013 07:46 AM


Junior Low-Carber



Personally, I don't feel that increasing carbs is an option for me. The advantages of the diabetes resolution are too big to mess with. My ketone levels in the evening (1-1.5) don't indicate deep ketosis... I'm going to try Dr Dayspring's recommendation to try cutting saturated fat; I'll up the mono-unsaturated. And also add some slow resistance training... Then get another NMR profile in a few months to see what changes. Do you know your APOE genotype ? 23andme.com

Until your weight has stabilized and your diet has been consistent for a few months your lipid profile is transitory. Don't forget bone broth with lots of salt. Use lots of olive oil to up your Mufa:Sat ratio. Know your inflammation status.

Gratz on your a1c btw, that is incredible!
RE: High LDL-P? , 01-18-2013 02:58 PM


Expert Low-Carber


Olive oil with one caveat. It is not stable for cooking. (I know it's used in a lot of cooking, but that's not necessarily a good thing). Add it after cooking or eat it cold. Or if you do cook with it, don't bring the temperatures too high. Stop well before the smoke point. Use ghee or animal fat but if you're trying to cut down on sat fat just use less.
RE: High LDL-P? , 01-26-2013 09:37 PM


Newbie Low-Carber


Quote:Do you know your APOE genotype ? 23andme.com

Until your weight has stabilized and your diet has been consistent for a few months your lipid profile is transitory. Don't forget bone broth with lots of salt. Use lots of olive oil to up your Mufa:Sat ratio. Know your inflammation status.

Gratz on your a1c btw, that is incredible!

APOE genotype is 3/3, so good stuff there. One of the inflammation markers (C reactive protein) was high . I already supplement with fish oil caps, but I have raised the amount, and started to eat some sardines in olive oil to try to help with that. Also trying to get as much avocado as possible, and lots of olive oil. Cutting back on cream. We have a source for grass-fed beef nearby and will be getting some of that (had to buy a freezer so we can buy a large enough amount at a time to be economically feasible!). My weight loss has slowed almost to a stop, but for me that's a secondary concern. Most important for me is to avoid more clogged coronaries for as long as possible (didn't enjoy the whole bypass surgery experience!)
RE: High LDL-P? , 01-27-2013 01:47 PM


Advanced Low-Carber


I wonder what Dr. Gundry's take on this would be? a recent expert Jimmy interviewed on fats, as he's a heart surgeon.
RE: High LDL-P? , 01-28-2013 10:55 AM


Expert Low-Carber


There is some thinking out there that high C reactive protein is part of a survival mechanism the body leans on when there in insufficient sunshine exposure.

Mackay Rippey

Has your weight loss stalled because your body clock is out of sync?