The Official Livin' La Vida Low-Carb Forum

I was debating whether to talk about this only in my journal or also here in the general forum. I'm sure many more people read what's posted on the general forum so I thought it was important to share my experience so if anyone else goes through it, they don't feel so alone, understand what's going on and can rectify the situation.

Too much fat in the diet can pose some problems, somewhat similar to those that present with ketoacidosis but not as bad. Symptoms are milder. With all the emphasis on fat and how important it is, one can overlook this and believe their symptoms are caused by something else and never ever find the solution unless they go back to eating enough carbs to get OUT of ketosis. Clearly, this is not a healthy solution. Like Charles and others, I'm convinced the human body is designed to burn ketones and fat for fuel. Very little glucose, if any, is needed.

When you first drop carbs, you eventually enter ketosis. But you don't want to remain in that state. You want to become adapted to using ketones such that all ketones are used by the body and none are spilled in the urine. To achieve this goal, carbs have to be quite low to non-existent in your diet. TheBear states 5 grams of carbs MAX per day, others a little more. Your call...each individual may react differently.

But dropping carbs is not the end of it because if you eat fat in excess of what your body requires, you also remain in ketosis, although keto-adapted. Let me explain...you body is using all the ketones it needs but is making even more because of all the fat you're eating. This may make you think you are not keto-adapted when in fact you are but are just consuming excess dietary fat. That was my case for the longest time (+1yr).

One might ask...why not remain in ketosis (where excess ketones are being spilled in urine and eliminated through the lungs)? Isn't that supposed to be a good thing, a sign that you are losing weight? NO. Actually, if you eat too much fat, that may just be the reason why you're stalling and not losing anymore weight. Ketosis should only be a transient state, that you kind of go through for a few weeks until your body adapts to using ketones as a new fuel for organs previously needing glucose, like the brain.

In ketosis, it should be no surprise that people experience to varying degrees symptoms often associated with diabetic acidosis like abdominal pain, tiredness, increased urination, dry skin, dizziness, lack of hunger, breathing problems that seem like anxiety, confusion, bad breath, nausea, rash/hives, dark circles under eyes, dehydrated, facial flushing, etc. These symptoms are obviously mild as compared to ketoacidosis where ketones are VERY high and glucose in the blood is also high, making things even worst. But even then, you want no symptoms and a healthy body and mind, right? Then, you also want to be out of ketosis as soon as possible and not ever go back to it. You will suffer for it and never benefit from ketones. That's also why I don't think it's a good idea to carb-load on and off because you will experience ketosis regularly and never be keto-adapted. You may only really feel good on those days you eat carbs and 1-2 days after. One cheat day and you're back in ketosis and how long it takes to become keto-adapted again, I don't know but why ever go back to that awful transition period? Is is really worth it?

Ketosis will remain as long as you eat too many carbs but not enough to get out of ketosis. Reduce your carbs or increase your carbs to get out ketosis. Preferably, for your health, do the former.

Ketosis will remain as long as you eat too many fats. Eat lean protein for awhile and you will know when it's time to eat fattier. At the moment, even a little fat bothers me such that I'm sticking with protein almost devoid of fat or just not eating...I'm barely hungry anyways. And there's a reason for that.

Ketosis is normal when you switch from glucose to ketones & fats. It is normal when you drop carbs but should last a maximum of 6 weeks. If longer, then carbs or fats are the problem. You make the call.

You are in ketosis when ketostix are showing small to large amounts of ketones. Ideally, it should be negative, not even trace. You are in ketosis when you experience some of the symptoms (milder) listed under ketoacidosis. in Google for symptoms.

I suspect ketosis may be the reason why so many stall in terms on weight loss.

I also want to stress the fact that fat IS important and should not be dropped too low either because then you get other complications associated with "rabbit starvation". A balancing act that can certainly be achieved.

Be well my friends!
Quote:In ketosis, it should be no surprise that people experience to varying degrees symptoms often associated with diabetic acidosis like abdominal pain, tiredness, increased urination, dry skin, dizziness, lack of hunger, breathing problems that seem like anxiety, confusion, bad breath, nausea, rash/hives, dark circles under eyes, dehydrated, facial flushing, etc. These symptoms are obviously mild as compared to ketoacidosis where ketones are VERY high and glucose in the blood is also high, making things even worst. But even then, you want no symptoms and a healthy body and mind, right? Then, you also want to be out of ketosis as soon as possible and not ever go back to it. You will suffer for it and never benefit from ketones. That's also why I don't think it's a good idea to carb-load on and off because you will experience ketosis regularly and never be keto-adapted. You may only really feel good on those days you eat carbs and 1-2 days after. One cheat day and you're back in ketosis and how long it takes to become keto-adapted again, I don't know but why ever go back to that awful transition period? Is is really worth it?

I find that I DON'T experience those symptoms when I'm in ketosis! My migraines are gone, I stopped having IBS attacks, my anxiety attacks are greatly reduced, and I have more energy than I ever had. However carb-loading makes me feel terribly sick, tired, lethargic, and generally miserable. I monitor my blood glucose daily along with my ketosis, and my sugars have stabilized for the first time in over a year. I know that with any diet, YMMV, but I don't think that ketosis is a bad thing, and DANDR doesn't either.

I'm interested in hearing what others think too.

Charles

One can be in ketosis and even benefiting from ketones with carbohydrates in their diet. A person can eat 20 grams of carbs per day and be using ketones. The ketones only show up when they are being wasted. If a person is consistently at 20 grams for 2 to 4 weeks, they will stop showing purple on the strips. If they decrease their level to 10, then they would again enter ketosis as their body adapts to the new carb level by increasing its production of ketones.

I don't believe too much fat makes you go into ketosis. Too much fat will likely make you a little nauseas, in which case one should eat more lean and keep a balance. The key is to listen to your own body, monitor your energy levels, and pay attention to your appetite. One cannot learn this following others. It's a very unique experience.

Ketosis in an of itself does not signal fat burning as is commonly assumed. All it means is that your body is now adjusting to a lower level of carbohydrate and the body has to make more ketones to compensate. That's all it means.

I think we've had this discussion this week in another thread.

Regards,

Charles
Neecy,

When you experience those good things, were you truly in ketosis or adapted? Did you check your ketostix?

Charles,

I know for a fact that too much fat makes you go into ketosis. My fat was kept pretty high all along and ketones always dark purple or light purple (i.e. large). Suddenly, I reduced my fat intake to 60% and ketones went down to "medium". Further reducing fat intake, ketones went down to small, where they are now and I really don't crave fat at all at the moment. My hunger is barely present and I just ate a little this morning, no more than 150 grams of meat. This all indicates to me that I was eating too much fat. Nausea is not the only symptom of too much fat, and I personally think it is only present when you really go overboard. I experienced it.

Ketosis just means being in a state where ketones produced are higher than those being used by the body. This can happen whether you are keto-adapted or not.

Charles

Okay.
I have never checked those sticks, nor do I care how many fat grams I eat or calories or protein. I have never used a mathematical formula to figure out my diet. I think a lot of people over analize this whole thing, just eat. Eat low carb. My food for the day is based on what meat is on sale, sometimes high fat, sometimes not as high. And my weight remains the same...
suzanneyea Wrote:I have never checked those sticks, nor do I care how many fat grams I eat or calories or protein. I have never used a mathematical formula to figure out my diet. I think a lot of people over analize this whole thing, just eat. Eat low carb. My food for the day is based on what meat is on sale, sometimes high fat, sometimes not as high. And my weight remains the same...

Suzanneyea, I am with you. But I also know that you can be in ketosis without losing weight. Once you become fully adapted you shouldn't be spilling ketones, the should be used for energy. But I also believe that ketosis is indeed a good state to be in. Not for weightloss but for health of the brain and other organs AND muscle. Although I eat only 2 meals a day, I know I eat more fat than ever and I have lost weight. I delieberately eat more fat now that i did in my past.
I have been eating around 80% fat for 6 weeks now. My ketostix are still deep purple. I have been stalled on the same weight for 3 weeks. I have energy and, other than those few days I went through unusal hunger, no other bad effects. I'm going to try cutting the fat back a little, just to see what happens. Otherwise, I might as well go back to KK WOE because that is what I was doing.....eating low fat meats, dropping weight, dropping hair, skin was drying out, etc, etc, etc.

I do understand and appreciate what you're saying, Kristelle.
I think what initially got me into all this mess was...my brain or my intellect. I wanted to make sure to achieve a ratio of about 80:20 so instead of just relying on my appetite for fat or more lean meat, I went with my brain/intellect and forcefed myself very fatty meats with sometimes extra fat even though I didn't really crave anymore fat. Because the 80:20 ratio was what I was aiming for.


black57 Wrote:
suzanneyea Wrote:I have never checked those sticks, nor do I care how many fat grams I eat or calories or protein. I have never used a mathematical formula to figure out my diet. I think a lot of people over analize this whole thing, just eat. Eat low carb. My food for the day is based on what meat is on sale, sometimes high fat, sometimes not as high. And my weight remains the same...

Suzanneyea, I am with you. But I also know, as Charles says, that you can be in ketosis without losing weight. Once you become fully adapted you shouldn't be spilling ketones, the should be used for energy. But I also believe that ketosis is indeed a good state to be in. Not for weightloss but for health of the brain and other organs AND muscle. Although I eat only 2 meals a day, I know I eat more fat than ever and I have lost weight. I delieberately eat more fat now that i did in my past.
Grrr, I am trying to let it out!

Been below 20 net carbs all week & stips are negative. So I must be burning the ketones off!

I am ditching the strips & just going for it!
Quote:I think what initially got me into all this mess was...my brain or my intellect
I knew there just had to be a benefit from not being too smart! I have finally found it.
Hello, new here. I'm an acupuncturist in Central New York (Clinton).

Suzanneyea has discovered what many of you already know, there are other mechanisms that influence health and well being besides insulin.

Once your insulin is under control and cell sensitivity has returned to normal, the ratio of fats to proteins, the type of proteins, and the nature of your unique metabolism influences blood pH.

Charles

Keep it simple. Just eat and drink to appetite. Measuring and analyzing are things that dieters do. We're supposed to be incorporating a way of life and it is not at all natural that eating should be such a chore. Find a nice fatty piece of meat and eat it. When you are finished, find a clean glass of water if you're thirsty and enjoy it. Then, move on to much more important matters!

Regards,

Charles
I ate fatty meats and did not feel good. Right then and there, I should have realized it was too fatty for me, eaten less of it and next time, bought a leaner meat. It's not so simple as picking the fattiest meats as some need more lean, others more fat...individuals vary, circumstances vary. But it shouldn't be so complicated either and a chore, I agree. Just pick a meat that looks good to you. Sometimes, veal, chicken breast or fish may appeal to you, at other times, ribs. Again, listen to your body. I really don't think extra fat is needed, in most cases, in addition to meats but you'll know if you want more fat anyways.
I will now say that my problem was most probably hormonal. The higher-than-needed estrogen levels in my body were possibly interfering with my ability to adapt to ketones and with my ability to handle fats.

The symptoms I have experienced since supplementing with estrogen are quite similar to those often linked to candida. Estrogen appears to promote candida.

I think I may have an explanation for why fats were making me "drunk". Dietary fats will kill candida and in the process, alcohol and toxins will be released. The alcohol released was making me drowsy, tired...3-4 hours later, I would wake up refreshed as if the candida had been eradicated from my body...but I kept taking estrogen and so the cycle would keep on going. The alcohol released could have also interfered with keto-adaptation. I was a drunk, an alcoholic all this time and didn't even know it!!! LOL.

The bloating I had could be from the alcohol released or toxins, then lodged in my colon(fermentation)...who knows??...but I know candida itself leads to bloating and abdominal distension...these worsened with the increase in fat intake.

Interestingly, there was a time when I took no estrogen. I lost weight. I restarted estrogen and gained about 4-5 lbs. Excess estrogen causes excess candida causes weight gain. Much like Excess carbs causes excess insulin causes weight gain.

I stopped estrogen again and my digestion suddenly improved, other symptoms also fading...I restarted and what do you know? They're back in town!

In conclusion, eat fatty meats (I was dead wrong about the fat) and enjoy life! My experience was quite unique...I was dealing with a hormonal problem. If you have the same problems as me, then your issue may be hormonal as well.
Do you think coconut oil would offset the candida?

Glad you figured out the issue, at least!
I remember eating lots of coconut oil. Up to 6 tbsp daily. I got the same symptoms on and off. The candida would probably be killed off by the coconut oil, giving me all kinds of symptoms commonly known as die-off symptoms, i would begin to feel better but then would take some more estrogen, feel worse, eat coconut and so on...
Kristelle,
I think you are overthinking things. It seems you have a new plan of attack every day. You announce one day to eat tons of fat, the next day to not eat fat, then hormones, then no hormones. All these changes with a week or two. If you do make a change to your plan you probably need to give more than a day or two to see if it works. You also need to accept that you will feel good some days and not as good other days. Try not to worry so much, drop the ketone sticks and try just eating meat until full and some excercise.
...and no hormones for awhile. Yes, I agree..too impulsive. I'll stick with the "no-hormones" plan for at least a month and see what happens.
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